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Post by Exposgm on Nov 20, 2007 20:40:37 GMT -5
It is time we start discussing the Play by Play possibilities – and limits – in the 2k8.
This will influence what happens in the Postseason, as the games will be either displayed or disputed over Netmeeting.
Baseball Mogul 2k8 offers a somewhat improved Play by Play over the 2k4. I say somewhat improved because some of the good aspects of the PbP in 2k4 aren’t back in the PbP in 2k8.
The current game offers 3 modes of Play by Play: Player, Manager and General Manager.
Player mode is best suited for Solo Play. It allows you to choose every pitch, the location, ask a hitter to take a pitch, etc… There is of course no way we would use this mode.
Manager mode can be interesting if you guys want to actually take over the randomness and sometimes idiotic Artificial Intelligence. Instead of controlling things on a pitch by pitch mode, manager mode goes into “One Pitch Mode”. You still can manage your defense, give intentional walks when you really want to, bunt, steal bases, use the hit and run, the run and hit and even decide whether or not your runner takes an extra-base (sometimes). Also, when in Manager Mode, you have complete control over the lineup changes, and you can even complete a double switch.
General Manager mode is exactly like it was in 2k4. The game is played entirely in One Pitch Mode, and nobody can intervene in the game as the A.I. has full control of the game.
The biggest flaw in General Manager mode is that I no longer can decide of the speed the game will be played at. I have experienced it with Rand, and it is so fast that both of us could barely follow the action. We have looked everywhere, and unfortunately, there is no way we can either slow things up or accelerate them as we could in the 2k4.
We need to discuss what you guys want as Play by Play mode before we reach the October playoffs. Some of you would probably like it very much to be allowed to manage in the games, some others on the other hand may prefer to keep it in General Manager mode as it always was under the 2k4.
But before some owners get excited about using the Manager mode, I have to point out its main weakness.
Manager mode is fun, really. But if two owners are to meet while I host a Netmeeting, we have some kind of problem concerning how to let the guys manage. This is where we need discussions, opinions and ideas.
On Netmeeting, everyone sees the game although some people might lag over me (it has happened in the past, and we’re talking a few innings late). But even if there wasn’t any lag, we would need to find a way to let owners manage in a way that isn’t too complicated for me to accomplish.
During a Netmeeting, we chat using a chat window. Whenever someone writes something, everyone sees it, unless he chooses to send it to only one person. That was the first option I thought of, in manager mode: both owners send me their strategies in PM over the chat window, and I get the game going by doing what they each asked for. One problem with that option is that whenever someone joins or leaves the Netmeeting, the message you were writing for one person only gets sent to everyone. I can make it so I have to allow people to join the Netmeeting, but I can’t control those who leave or even sometimes get kicked out for some reason. The other problem I see is that, if the discussion is very busy, it’ll be too easy for me to miss on some of the managing orders that would have been written to me.
The idea that sounded the greatest was to run the game in Manager Mode but only allow lineup changes by always hitting the Bat and Pitch options. But Manager Mode disables the A.I., so in that case, there would be no steals, no bunts, no defensive strategies, etc…
General Manager mode would be ideal if it wasn’t for it’s amazing speed. Try it. When you’re trying to keep up with the game, you find that whenever you look at something on the screen for half a second, you missed two hitters already.
I thought of other ideas such as having the managers send me their decisions on another chat, such as MSN. But that means 2 more windows to place somewhere on the screen; not only does it block parts of what you guys see, but whenever I click on the decisions, those windows “disappear” and I have to bring them back up by endlessly hitting “Alt-Tab”.
So, what do we do? Only allow the managers to intervene from the sixth inning? Only allow lineup changes? Or go with General Manager mode? Should only the involved managers decide what they prefer to go with? Or do we allow guys to manage only during the World Series?
Of course, if we were to allow guys to manage, both owners would need to attend the game in order to let them manage.
Other ideas need to be discussed. Soon, a poll will be issued and we will vote on the option we all prefer.
Let’s make it clear that whatever decision is eventually taken, this is our very first year using the 2k8. We will adjust in the future if we need to.
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Post by Scott on Nov 20, 2007 23:36:10 GMT -5
This is pretty obvious to me.
We need to go General Manager mode. I have also tried it, and while it is faster, I could follow the action pretty well.
I would love to do Manager Mode and be able to make the necessary changes, but there is no way that is going to work out. Usually in Netmeetings, Terry is there, I am there, Rand is there, and maybe 1 or 2 others. It would be too hard to meet everyone's schedules to make that work, and really would be too complicated even if both of us were there.
I say General Manager Mode is clearly the way to go.
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Post by MarinersGM on Nov 21, 2007 7:23:23 GMT -5
I agree with Scott I just don't see how we can do anything but General Manager Mode. Just getting the two people who are playing together at the same time will be near impossible. Heck we can't even get some people to draft within an 18hr period!
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Post by Cubbies on Nov 21, 2007 9:15:08 GMT -5
I agree also.
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Post by sjrand on Nov 21, 2007 13:29:49 GMT -5
You guys haven't seen general manager mode in a netmeeting, so you don't know how bad it really is.
Watching solo on your own computer, it's too fast but tolerable. As a guest in a netmeeting it's a whole other ballgame, so bad that it's not even worth trying to watch. And forget about the chatter and crosstalk that makes the experience fun. If you take the time to write or read a comment, you'll miss two innings.
There are ways we can use manager mode which would be fair to everyone. Terry didn't bring any up, and we were supposed to test some of them before this discussion got started, but they exist.
I also think that, if using manager mode makes the games last longer, there's no reason we can't have a playoffs season lasting two or three weeks.
Right now we take over two months to get to the playoffs, then finish all three playoff rounds in under a week. That's fine for the owners that are waiting for next year, or next decade, but having a two month battle decided in one day isn't exactly an event to cherish for those whose teams made it, half of which will be gone at the end of round one.
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Post by Scott on Nov 21, 2007 13:55:47 GMT -5
That may be true, but the problem is we would need both managers there to do Manager Mode.
I just do not think that is too likely given as Rich said: We have enough trouble getting through a draft.
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Post by sjrand on Nov 21, 2007 14:06:52 GMT -5
That may be true, but the problem is we would need both managers there to do Manager Mode. That's not necessarily true. Terry just didn't mention what we'd discussed to get around that and still keep it fair.
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Post by Scott on Nov 21, 2007 14:11:43 GMT -5
Alright, cool. I will wait to see what those things are once they are tested then.
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Post by Exposgm on Nov 22, 2007 3:30:32 GMT -5
We need to go General Manager mode. I have also tried it, and while it is faster, I could follow the action pretty well. I don't know how you manage it. I just tried more tests with another owner. It is so fast that many times during a game, I see 2 outs at the same time; I see the batter hit the ball in a certain direction, and on the right side of the screen, 2 outs get added. On one swing, and we're not talking about a double play here. Or are loading the bases all at once, seeing all 3 runners show up at the same time on the bases, I mean, that's fast! Just watching the game, I can barely follow the action. First thing you know, we're in the fourth inning, pick your nose, here comes the ninth! The owner I tested this with also saw the same thing. This is a great nonsense; why was the "Speed" option removed? We need to find a way to play the games in Manager Mode without it being too complicated. Just like this, a few ideas (in absolutely no particular order): - have the owners that cannot show up name a replacement manager in which they will put their confidence; of course, that owner has to show up; - allow only a limited number of strategies, like once an inning or similar; no limits on lineup changes, though; - have the owners (taking part in the postseason, that is) submit to me some kind of playbook - as simple as can be - that would have such orders as steal bases only with x players, use bench hitter in order, PH in x situation; I know very few people showed up in the past, but that was 2k4. Maybe some owners felt that it was too boring since they couldn't decide for anything. This is something that may (or may not) bring more people to Netmeetings. We also need more ideas. Those are the ones I could think of just now. I also think that Rand has a very good point when he says that, taking more time to get through the playoffs isn't something bad at all. The whole issue of this game is to make the postseason. It's silly to have it go by just like that when that time of the season is reached. Sure, 16 teams out of 24 can't make it, but does it mean we need to rush things just so they can get faster to next season?
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Post by San Diego Padres on Nov 22, 2007 8:05:47 GMT -5
How about using a really old, slow computer? Really though, I just don't see getting owners together for playoffs as being a reality, we now have 3 tiers of playoffs involving 8 teams. Matching up time off while dealing with Holidays, differant work issues (ie. 3rd shift, working weekends and being on-call for emergencies) and time zone differances will be very difficult, if not impossible. You say 3 weeks for the playoffs would be acceptable, personally I believe that the delay on conversion to 2k8, the delay for the draft, etc., etc., is the underlying cause of owners becoming complacent and are now missing important, very important draft picks. We don't need yet another delay. Personally GM mode would have to do, unless both owners can attend and then manager mode could be used. I just don't believe that just because you have more free time then someone else you should be given a big advanatge in the playoffs, an advantage that no one gets during the regular season.
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Post by Scott on Nov 22, 2007 9:17:05 GMT -5
I could not agree with this more. That is my other issue with this. While the post season has been really fast in the past, I think it has to be.
I personally would have no problem if it took 2 months to complete the postseason, but that is because I am winning right now. If I was a losing team, I would lose all interest even in a 3-4 week down period.
I also still agree with those that have said it is going to be near impossible for us to get owners together.
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Post by Cubbies on Nov 22, 2007 9:23:35 GMT -5
In my opinion, your netmeeting attendance list will not make a difference between 2K4 and 2K8. Like myself I'm sure there are many owners that would have a tough time making it to a scheduled netmeeting. Between work and family it is tough enough to find much spare time! I also have no problem with the current speed of the playoffs, even when I used to be in them! At that point there isn't much you can do with your team, your just waiting for the game to be simulated. Like the non playoff teams your also looking forward to the funnest part of the season, the off season, with the draft and free agency. Anyways I had better get going, off to work.......................
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Post by Mosko on Nov 22, 2007 10:03:59 GMT -5
I also prefer to have the playoffs games played quickly. Even when I was in the playoffs every year, I just wanted to get through the playoffs and on to free agency and the next season's preparations.
I sometimes watch the playoff games on NetMeeting even when my team is not involved, but if each game takes an hour to play instead of 5-10 minutes, I won't.
My opinion is that we should allow managers to change lineups between games, but run the games in GM mode.
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Post by sjrand on Nov 22, 2007 13:19:12 GMT -5
What some of you just aren't getting is that the game can't be watched in GM mode over a netmeeting. The way it goes by, we might as well have a netmeeting with the playoffs screen up and sim one day at a time to see who won. Or not hold a meeting at all. The down time last off season has nothing to do with how owners are behaving now. The typically active ones are just as active as always. The ones whose history shows they rarely do anything make moves just as rarely as usual. Just look at post lists if you want to check how active any given owner usually is. Posts are date stamped. The least active ones are no different than they were last season, before that down time, from what I can see. I sometimes watch the playoff games on NetMeeting even when my team is not involved, but if each game takes an hour to play instead of 5-10 minutes, I won't. 2k4 PbP games never took 5-10 minutes unless neither owner showed up and I cranked the speed to near max so we could watch a game involving a team whose owner did show up (Scott, Kevin, Terry, me). A big addition to this discussion would be having people say if they even intend to show up no matter how we decide to do things. And I mean show up to watch, not log in for five minutes to say hi and check out how their contest predictions are doing. Why try to scaling the PbP for maximum attendance when typical attendance is 3-4 guys, 8 at one meeting is the all time league record, and we've had several with only 2? And its not a day of the week or time of day issue either. I tried moving the playoffs to weekends only, and it made no difference at all. Our record of 8 was on a weekday afternoon. A few of our worst, with only Terry and I watching, were on weekends. Off season down time effects everybody, but owners didn't seem too concerned with down time in our last rookie draft, did they? I wanted faster seasons, so I polled for going to three sims a week all season. That got voted down by something like 14-3. I tried to move the rookie draft to in-season to shorten the off season, and that was also voted down. I wanted to shift free agency to an ongoing in-season process, and was told resoundingly that everyone liked FA period, and didn't care about the down time involved. So how concerned with speed are we, really? Every effort to shorten the off season, or speed up the regular season sims, is voted down. How is this different?
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Post by San Diego Padres on Nov 22, 2007 14:00:19 GMT -5
Rand,
You guys asked for opinions and thats what we're giving you. I personally am interested in the speed of the game. I would like 3 games a week all season, and still believe that all the down time causes people to lose interest. For some, next season cannot come soon enough. I don't want to see what happened with historical pitches. We discussed it, discussed it, voted against it, discussed it some more, and then BAM it was shoved down are throats anyway.
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Post by boffer on Nov 22, 2007 20:59:54 GMT -5
I like to consider myself as a gamer and as a gamer for sure I would like to intervene during the playoff games. In general manager mode, there is no way we can do something in this mode cause it is going way to fast, ( I saw it during a test with our Commish). We have left the manager mode, but for this to happen we need to create a kind of play book facing a multiple possibility, With a play book, one or two assistant along with the Commish could run all games in a decent period time length. I am willing to participate in creating this playbook, ounce create it could be sent to all Owners in the playoff.
The book could be a list of questions regarding selected situation during the game.
EX: Offense: 1st to 3rd inning with runner on 1st base do you steal 2nd runner speed 76 - 80 Y or N runner speed 81 - 90 Y or N runner speed 91 - 99 Y or N
Defense: 1st to 3rd inning with runner on 1st base do you..
Stay at normal defense position Y or N Bring corner in Y or N
Offense : Pitcher at the plate do you pinch hit
7th inning Y or N 8th inning Y or N 9th inning Y or N xtra inning Y or N
Defense : Pitcher past 100 pitches do you replace him
7th inning Y or N 8th inning Y or N 9th inning Y or N
This is just an example on how we could send info to the owner who could not attend the net-meeting.
This is how i see it.
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Post by San Diego Padres on Nov 22, 2007 21:43:02 GMT -5
I don't think you can make a playbook and say it equals having a person in charge of the team. There are way too many variables that cannot possibly be put on paper. It's not as easy as saying
EX: Offense: 1st to 3rd inning with runner on 1st base do you steal 2nd
runner speed 76 - 80 Y or N runner speed 81 - 90 Y or N runner speed 91 - 99 Y or N
What's the score? What is the defensive ability of the catcher? How many outs? Am I potentially taking the bat out of my best hitters hand by getting caught?
I am steadfast against putting the playoffs into Manager mode, unless, both owners are present. It gives a HUGE advantage to the team with their owner at the helm. This is about to become way too complicated. In most cases simpler is better, more rules, playbooks, etc. take away from why we play. It's supposed to be fun, not stressful, confusing and difficult.
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Post by Exposgm on Nov 22, 2007 23:55:07 GMT -5
It's supposed to be fun, not stressful, confusing and difficult. But the way General Manager Mode is right now, at the speed it is playing the game at, it is no fun at all, and it is quite confusing. We are not trying to find a way to force people to accept Manager Mode. The simpler would be to use General Manager Mode IF it wasn't this insanely crazy! Running sims at such a speed is a joke. At this speed, there won't be any conversations because even typing the word "Hello" makes you miss an entire half-inning. So what would be the point of having people join in on a Netmeeting, only to shut up while trying to follow a fast-forwarded game, and chat a little between games? At that rate, it's almost futile to run it this way. But I cannot dare to imagine having to run a Netmeeting, sim day by day and NOT in the Play by Play mode and have everyone look at the boxscores and recaps before asking them if they wish to make any changes for next game. Who really believes us when we say it's damn too fast? By experience, owners who attend the postseason when their teams are involved are able to watch the game and see if anything is wrong in their strategies or lineups as the game gets played at a fair speed. It allows them, when a game is over, to adjust if necessary. For instance, if they didn't like having 3 or 4 of their runners getting caught stealing, they will adjust their basestealing strategy for the next game, and that is perfectly alright. But what we have here is a game going by so fast, nobody will even know what happened and how were these guys retired, or whatever else might have happened. Did a runner just got gunned down by trying to stretch a double into a triple? I don't know, I didn't have time to read about it! Was the pitcher replaced by a PH in the 2nd inning of a 1-0 game? I don't know, I barely caught up with what happened. And I didn't turn my eyes away from the screen one second! I have watched games and games over General Manager Mode. My team won't even be in the playoffs, and this speedy-Gonzalez rythm bugs me already. I can't imagine trying to analyze and enjoy a playoff game if it was the case like it has been many times before, and to be unable to do neither because this thing is just plain too fast! We're asking people for ideas on how we could get to use Manager Mode. But instead of participating on a creative debate, it's all just no, no, no. You won't even give it a shot; any idea we'll throw out here will just get destroyed.
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Post by San Diego Padres on Nov 23, 2007 6:43:41 GMT -5
It's not NO-NO-NO, I don't have the solution, and I am not the type of person that say's NO just for the sake of saying NO, but I haven't heard a thing yet that would make me believe that a playbook is the way to go. That would do more damage than good. Not every situation can be properly placed into a playbook, it's not a good idea at all. Obviously, the owner at the helm would be the right way to go, but you can give up on that, no way, no how is that going to happen.
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Post by Cubbies on Nov 23, 2007 9:25:41 GMT -5
Here is an idea, why not have a poll on whether or not people want to have the playoffs on net meeting? We get the point that GM mode is not good but why change the dynamics of the game for something that isn't really necessary. If netmeeting is something you still want to have part of TMBL, why not have our "Winter Meetings" on netmeeting to do some off season whealing and dealing.
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Post by Yankees on Nov 23, 2007 9:49:58 GMT -5
Would it be possible to use manager mode so we can watch it .
But not allow any changes unless both owners are present?
I don't like the play book idea even if both owners were force to use it. Although both using a play book is fairer than one using and one not.
Whatever decision is made i think it as to be totally equal to both owners.
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Post by Scott on Nov 23, 2007 11:22:16 GMT -5
Now there is an idea. I can't remember if this is possible or not. I certainly will not be testing it at my parents house which is where I am now. This computer is way too slow at anything.
What do you think Terry? Does the computer make changes in Manager Mode or do we have to make them no matter what?
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Post by sjrand on Nov 23, 2007 14:01:30 GMT -5
Rand, You guys asked for opinions and thats what we're giving you. I personally am interested in the speed of the game. Terry asked for opinions. Unfortunately, he didn't give people give all the possible options. Partly because some are waiting to be tested. I'm just participating in this discussion as a concerned owner, no different from you. My opinions here are only my opinions, not representative of the league stance. The historical pitches issue was different because it was essentially a bug, and one which was going to have a long term effect on our league. There should never even have been a discussion about it. It was a mistake in our file which needed to be corrected, period. Little different than if a bug caused some teams to lose 40M of their cash. You don't discuss the problem, you just fix it. The play by play type selected for netmeetings doesn't have anywhere near that level of importance. Nor do the number of sims per week, etc. When I was commissioner, I was a dictator and made no apologies for that. It helped create a healthy league, even if it did lose us a few owners over the years. As "league president" I'm still a dictator, but only if something threatens the basic principals or long term stability of the league. Back to PbP mode. As just one owner among many, I strongly feel that participating owner opinions carry more weight than those of people who don't attend the meetings, no matter what their reasons are. Nobody knows better than I that there are many real life obligations preventing us from doing what we'd like to do, and I have absolute respect for that. But in the end, a person not attending, or rarely attending, due to work or life is no different than someone not attending because they don't feel like it; they're not there to share the experience.
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Post by sjrand on Nov 23, 2007 14:31:11 GMT -5
We have left the manager mode, but for this to happen we need to create a kind of play book facing a multiple possibility, That's certainly an option. One of several, but a good one. I don't think you can make a playbook and say it equals having a person in charge of the team. I don't think so either. So any owner who wants to control his team should only be allowed to use the play book style unless both owners are at the meeting. If both are there, then there's the possibility of allowing more control, otherwise Terry just goes by the books submitted. But the way General Manager Mode is right now, at the speed it is playing the game at, it is no fun at all, and it is quite confusing. {omitted} We're asking people for ideas on how we could get to use Manager Mode. But instead of participating on a creative debate, it's all just no, no, no. You won't even give it a shot; any idea we'll throw out here will just get destroyed. How can people give us informed opinions when they haven't seen all the options and don't even know what the game looks like in a netmeeting? How about you set up a demonstration some evening so people who care can come and have a look? In the meantime, we could present everyone with a list of things that we can do to make manager mode work as a fair alternative. Would it be possible to use manager mode so we can watch it . But not allow any changes unless both owners are present? As Terry mentioned in the top post, using manager mode essentially disables AI control. That means team strategy settings are tossed out. Which, come to think of it, isn't a whole lot different than what 2k4 did to a lot of us come playoff time. I don't like the play book idea even if both owners were force to use it. One alternative to a play book is to let the commissioner run the team from the strategy settings. This would take a lot of practice though, and we'd have to come up with a set of guidelines to follow. Also. Going back some years, I've worked with utility programs that were able to control the speed of other programs. I'm not sure if any work on the XP OS, but I'm already looking into it and I eliminated one such utility just this morning. If we can selectively slow down BBM (without slowing down the whole computer), then using GM mode in a netmeeting could become a valid option. I'll keep looking.
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Post by Exposgm on Nov 23, 2007 15:18:23 GMT -5
What do you think Terry? Does the computer make changes in Manager Mode or do we have to make them no matter what? Unfortunately, in manager mode, the AI does nothing, even lineup changes. If I don't force a pitcher change, both pitchers will stay there until the game is over. But it isn't entirely true concerning strategies. There are 18 different strategies that we, as owners, can make. Out of this 18, there are some that we cannot control in Manager Mode: - Tag Up: It's not a possibility in the PbP strategies and we don't get asked if we want to send the runner home on a sac fly; it just does it according to how they are set in the concerned team's strategies; - Pitch Out: Again, we don't have that possibility in the PbP strategies, it just does it automatically in the right circumstances; it was a lot tougher to steal bases vs a team with their pitch out set high (aka Boston Red Sox) than it was against one set very low (aka Montreal Expos), which tends to prove that the AI does use this strategy during a game in Manager Mode; - Pitch Around: We are not giving that option either. You can pitch to a batter, or walk him intentionally. So my guess is since we can't choose to do this, the AI does it in Manager Mode. - Cutoff Throws: While we can choose various defensive strategies, we cannot intervene to cutoff throws. The AI must do it all by itself depending on how it it set up in the team's strategies. - Start on Short Rest: Well, not in Play by Play, obviously. Maybe there is a way that we could scale the rest of the strategies so that if a specific strategy is set at 0, the team acts a certain way in specific circumstances. It would be like taking the place of the AI, only better (out with the pitcher getting PH in the 2nd inning, out with the intentional walks with the bases empty, etc... The owners who attended a few Netmeetings know what I'm talking about.) And, sure, I can run a Netmeeting demo in General Manager mode for everyone to see how it goes. While we're at it, we could also experience a few ideas in Manager Mode. I won't decide of a date and time now; many of you are busy with hollidays. But I'll gladly listen to any time propositions you would have and pick up the time that seems to be the best for most people.
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