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Post by Paul - Jays GM on Mar 18, 2009 8:38:24 GMT -5
Ok - I just simmed one season, and while the grades for each area seemed to change for every team on a rather random basis, by October 1, 1977 all grades are back to A+ and fan loyalty has changed to a low of 71 and a high of 77.
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Post by Paul - Jays GM on Mar 18, 2009 8:44:47 GMT -5
Ok, more info - I have not changed ticket price info, most teams show a jump in revenue and profits despite a reduction of league revenue to +20% from +40%, (we may need to adjust lower as many teams are getting a bump in fan loyalty in the reset if we proceed this way) - also, by April 1, 1978 the fan loyalty range has jumped to 87 as a high and 69 as a low - it seems to be very quick to respond from the reset, it should not take more that a couple of seasons for the teams with high loyalty currently to get back to where they were before a reset, ditto for the teams with low loyalty. - end of 2nd season, same results with grades, while they change in season, they reset to A+ (at Sept 1 for Farm and Medical)
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Post by Paul - Jays GM on Mar 18, 2009 9:09:10 GMT -5
ok, by the 1980 season, there are no grade changes through the year, all grades stay at A+, revenues seem to be good at +20%, Fan loyalty is as high as 95 (Atlanta) and as low as 59 (San Fran) - but this is with no management of rosters or ticket prices, and in Commish mode (where all contracts are accepted, so minimal roster movement) Looking at my top spects, they all turn out pretty well - Can someone else do a similar test to see if the results can be duplicated
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Post by San Diego Padres on Mar 18, 2009 9:11:29 GMT -5
ok, by the 1980 season, there are no grade changes through the year, all grades stay at A+, revenues seem to be good at +20%, Fan loyalty is as high as 95 (Atlanta) and as low as 59 (San Fran) - but this is with no management of rosters or ticket prices, and in Commish mode (where all contracts are accepted, so minimal roster movement) Looking at my top spects, they all turn out pretty well - Can someone else do a similar test to see if the results can be duplicated Already did that with the same results. I really think this will work.
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Post by boobiegibson4three on Mar 18, 2009 11:20:06 GMT -5
Heres all the teams revenues listed below:
118.1 87.3 90.7 91.3 55 66.1 97.5 94.1 81.6 83.3 77.6 71.7 81.4 75.6 94.7 80.5 58.2 95.6 64.3 65.2 90 81.1 66.9 90.3
958.1 Total league revenue for 76 season.
farm spending=13 x 23 + 8 = 307 million spent on league farm.
medical=(3x13.5)+(8x10.25)+(9x4)+(.5+8.25+0+10.6+10.5+1+10.3+10.5+10.6) = 210.75 total m
517.75 total league expenditures on medical/farm
reduce league revenue by 20% or .2 958.1*.2=191.62
thus only reducing league revenue by 20% would inject tons of cash into our economy
if reducing league revenue, it should be a decrease of 50% or 60%...60% being the closet to the reduction of league expenditures that would occur.
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Post by Scott on Mar 18, 2009 11:37:12 GMT -5
Now there is a guy who thinks like me. Crunching the numbers! Though I am not sure about the accuracy of that calc, because we would be decreasing revenue from +40% to +20%. Yes, that is a decline of 20 percentage points, but it could also be a decline of 50% from 40 to 20. Who the heck knows what the actual % loss would be. You would have to know the base in which we are beginning in order to accurately figure that out.
This is going to take a long long time to figure out IMO. I think for this season only, we should bump all teams below a B to a B, and then try to figure out a long term solution to put into place next season.
Nobody is going to be worse off in the current year even if the AI bumps you down a bit during the current season from a B. Heck we could even put everyone at a B+ and hope the AI does not lower anyone further than a B- in the current year.
What we are trying to do here is very complicated and needs to be fully examined. Doing that in a few days or weeks probably is not going to be possible. Everything we do is going to impact something else in a big way. That is what happens when you manually mess with a game that has a mind of its own.
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Post by San Diego Padres on Mar 18, 2009 11:57:45 GMT -5
Now there is a guy who thinks like me. Crunching the numbers! Though I am not sure about the accuracy of that calc, because we would be decreasing revenue from +40% to +20%. Yes, that is a decline of 20 percentage points, but it could also be a decline of 50% from 40 to 20. Who the heck knows what the actual % loss would be. You would have to know the base in which we are beginning in order to accurately figure that out. This is going to take a long long time to figure out IMO. I think for this season only, we should bump all teams below a B to a B, and then try to figure out a long term solution to put into place next season. Nobody is going to be worse off in the current year even if the AI bumps you down a bit during the current season from a B. Heck we could even put everyone at a B+ and hope the AI does not lower anyone further than a B- in the current year. What we are trying to do here is very complicated and needs to be fully examined. Doing that in a few days or weeks probably is not going to be possible. Everything we do is going to impact something else in a big way. That is what happens when you manually mess with a game that has a mind of its own. We can't just set everyone at a B or anything else for that matter. It's like trying to make a skinny girl out of a fat one. You can push on her stomach all you want, the bulge just moves somewhere else. Every time you change a C to a B somewhere else a B is going to a D, and this goes on and on. If it takes a few weeks to get it right, I say let's do it. This is long overdue.
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Post by San Diego Padres on Mar 18, 2009 12:35:50 GMT -5
farm spending=13 x 23 + 8 = 307 million spent on league farm. medical=(3x13.5)+(8x10.25)+(9x4)+(.5+8.25+0+10.6+10.5+1+10.3+10.5+10.6) = 210.75 total m 517.75 total league expenditures on medical/farm If we include app. $13 mil in scouting money we have $540 mil to spend. Why not, until we figure out the proper ratio for income, simply "bill" each team 20.7 million dollars for 1977, reset all spending to zero. Everyone will be even and we can then run sims during the season to set the revenue properly starting in 1978.
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Post by Paul - Jays GM on Mar 18, 2009 12:41:35 GMT -5
but remember that resetting the grades, it resets fan loyalty as well, many teams will see reduced revenue beyond 20% based on the (temporary) loss of fan loyalty. I think that if you sim the next 3 years out at revenue +20% instead of the current +40%, resetting the team grades and dropping expenses to 0, things are basically sorted out. Then, our farm/medical/scouting are exactly the same as the financial basis of the league - equalized. Now everyone is on a level playing field and it comes down to who can do a better job at managing both thier long term development and thier short term roster needs to ensure success for thier franchise.
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Post by Paul - Jays GM on Mar 18, 2009 12:48:16 GMT -5
re-setting grades also resets all cash to 10.5 million (this would need to be adjusted - or have all cash converted to points, prior to the reset if we decided to go this route)
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Post by San Diego Padres on Mar 18, 2009 12:51:41 GMT -5
but remember that resetting the grades, it resets fan loyalty as well, many teams will see reduced revenue beyond 20% based on the (temporary) loss of fan loyalty. I think that if you sim the next 3 years out at revenue +20% instead of the current +40%, resetting the team grades and dropping expenses to 0, things are basically sorted out. Then, our farm/medical/scouting are exactly the same as the financial basis of the league - equalized. Now everyone is on a level playing field and it comes down to who can do a better job at managing both thier long term development and thier short term roster needs to ensure success for thier franchise. You don't have to reset the grades. Just change the amount spent to zero for all 3 categories and by the end of the season all are A+. It works itself out without any other interferance.
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Post by Scott on Mar 18, 2009 12:57:42 GMT -5
Alright, well let's roll with the $0 in all spending, and run some tests to figure out the revenue issue.
And while we are completely overhauling this thing, lets take a look at the fact that our revenue was probably set to high to begin with. Many teams in the league have way too much cash. Almost no one has too little cash, which should not necessarily be the case normally. There should be a reasonable mix of everything.
Once we get the revenue amount figured out, lets get the season rolling. I even like the idea of charging teams at the end of the year for the amount they would have spent on the expenses.
Also while we are changing things up, lets consider lower the bonuses for trading, articles, voting for awards, etc. This has infused a lot of extra cash into the league when I think we already had too much cash to begin with. Something with cash needs to change.
Also, we need to make sure putting medical at 0 for everyone does not cause injuries galore. I wouldn't think so with everyone at A+, but who knows.
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Post by American Royal on Mar 18, 2009 13:02:33 GMT -5
I don't think we need to be changing medical to ZERO dollars unless we change the injury frequency and severity across the league.
I can't believe my little paragraph has spilled into 5 + pages of discusion. But I am glad something is going to change (hopefully). I am not ready to change the way I run a team or switch teams or leagues just yet
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Post by Exposgm on Mar 18, 2009 13:02:34 GMT -5
One thing is for sure: manually changing grades on teams does not work. It changes other teams. Like, if you go through them in alphabetical order and change them all to whatever grade, once you're done, the only teams around A are the last ones you modified (SEA, TOR, TEX) and the first you modified (BAL, BOS, CLE, etc...) have all jumped back to grades around D. I have tried this several times in different ways, but the results was always the same.
Concerning the finances:
It's true that trying to figure out the levels we should set finances to is going to take a long while. I haven't tested this yet, but I was thinking about 2 things:
- Put everyone's Farm and Medical expenses at Zero, and invest 20M+ (meaning replacing the amount everyone was spending on all 3 areas) in Scouting; if this does not affect Farm and Medical grades, it would be a quick fix that would allow us to save some time.
If that does not work, I also thought about this, which has yet to be tested:
- I would create one player per team whose salary would be set around 20M+ (again, the amount everyone spent on all 3 areas). I can set the contract to "Undefined", which allows me to make it last 50 years.
I just created one on the Expos, New Player is signed through 2026 at $25M annually. Although he is in R, his contract not being a draft day contract really adds his salary to my payroll. Once guys like him would be created everywhere, with expenses set at Zero, their salaries would cover the missing expenses money. I set mine at 25M for the moment, but it's just a number like that, 13M in Farm plus around 12M for the rest made it near 25M anyway.
These players being young and signed for so long wouldn't need any attention. They would never re-sign. To make sure they don't retire, I would make their peak last until 50 (yup, it works).
Last thing, in case some owners fear that this "New Player" would be in their other prospect's way, I would agree to modify his position according to the owner's wish. For instance, if New Player is a SS and the team drafts another SS with both being in R, New Player would be turned into whatever the owner wishes, just so that New Player does not steal playing time from others.
Even simpler would be to make him a pitcher.
This could work for the 1977 season and give us the necessary time to better calculate what to really do with the finances. But if it works really well, it could become the simplest solution and we'd stick with this for a while.
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Post by San Diego Padres on Mar 18, 2009 13:18:04 GMT -5
I don't think we need to be changing medical to ZERO dollars unless we change the injury frequency and severity across the league. I can't believe my little paragraph has spilled into 5 + pages of discusion. But I am glad something is going to change (hopefully). I am not ready to change the way I run a team or switch teams or leagues just yet Your little paragraph got what has become a bit stale, more engaging. We need to fix this now. I have played with the revenue a bit and it seems setting it a 0% is a good number. Also, some teams are effected by poor performances (probably a bogus lineup) or high ticket prices. This needs to be addressed before a real picture can be obtained. I also agree with Scott about the bonuses. I know they are there to encourage participation, but they are a lot of work on Terry's part to process and sometimes simpler is better. Maybe a penalty for not participating in league votes, discussions, and awards should be in order. On a side note, when a team has a lot of cash does it effct there own teams revenue or the entire leagues? Because, if having a lot of unspent cash only hurts individuals who do not spend it, maybe the point system should go away. ;D
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Post by Paul - Jays GM on Mar 18, 2009 13:25:35 GMT -5
Ok, I just ran a 1977 sim after a reset and changed the prices to $22.00 for each team. Revenue was in a range of 141 million at the highest and 80 million at the lowest, with profits for the year ranging from 69 million (for the 141 million revenue) to 14.4 million (for the 69 million revenue). That was at the current +40% revenue rating.
Same settings, but now at +20% (this is without playoff revenue) the range is 120 million to 91 million at the lowest (still a bit too high, as I have not eliminated the expenses and most teams are showing profits)
Now at +0%, revenues are between 110 million and 69 million, here are some notable examples. Atlanta - 118.1 million in 1976, goes to 106 million without playoff revenue at this level. Baltimore, 87 million in 1976, 95 million at this level. Some will go up, some will go down, but even at 0%, the change in overall revenue is not yet enough to balance the lowered spending amounts.
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Post by Paul - Jays GM on Mar 18, 2009 13:29:42 GMT -5
As for Terry's idea of the fake contract or the scouting expense, I would rather see us adjust the settings so that the numbers work themselves out instead of fudging them.
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Post by Scott on Mar 18, 2009 13:42:34 GMT -5
I also agree with Scott about the bonuses. I know they are there to encourage participation, but they are a lot of work on Terry's part to process and sometimes simpler is better. Maybe a penalty for not participating in league votes, discussions, and awards should be in order. On a side note, when a team has a lot of cash does it effect there own teams revenue or the entire leagues? Because, if having a lot of unspent cash only hurts individuals who do not spend it, maybe the point system should go away. ;D I completely agree with the penalty vs. the bonus. It takes out cash that is not needed, and it penalizes people who do not care enough to participate in anything. On the second point about potentially getting rid of the cash cap. That is a double edged sword. If having higher cash only hurt the individual teams (which I believe it does in 2k8 as opposed to the whole league in 2k4), and we got rid of the cash cap, I guarentee that teams besides the Braves would not see a good FA for quite a few years. I would be spending cash like it grew on trees on free agents because I would have no where else to spend it especially with expenses at 0 now. This may happen even with the cash cap, but I can guarentee it would without.
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Post by boobiegibson4three on Mar 18, 2009 13:43:05 GMT -5
"On a side note, when a team has a lot of cash does it effct there own teams revenue or the entire leagues"
i always thought that with tons of cash, attendance drops since fans dont like owners making tons of money and sitting on it...i think i read that in the mogul forums.
As for Terry's idea of the fake contract i love it, i think thats the way to go (or at least now to get teh season started)
i love the bonuses for trades, voting, and articles. i would be extremely against eliminated this
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Post by Scott on Mar 18, 2009 13:53:15 GMT -5
i love the bonuses for trades, voting, and articles. i would be extremely against eliminated this I don't understand it. Does anyone seriously make a trade so that they can earn the cash bonus? I mean, maybe this occurs, but I think that is just silly. As far as voting and articles bonuses, I don't understand it either. People are rewarded for something they should be obligated to do as a league member anyway. Do people vote for awards just so they can earn the bonus? Maybe I am the odd man out there, but I doubt it. Maybe I give people too much credit for caring about the league and doing things to make it more interested any enjoyable for everyone else. I have offered to have my bonuses forfeited at least 5 times now, but it is always turned down by Terry.
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Post by boobiegibson4three on Mar 18, 2009 13:58:11 GMT -5
the trade that i made wayne gross for 500k would not have happened unless i got an extra 500k from the bonus....i know thats small ball, but the twins are as effecient as the braves right now.
The awards i would vote w/ out a bonus, but im sure some wouldnt.
League articles i would probably not do unless i got a bonus. It gives me incentive to start an article, w/ out the incentive i would never really think about starting an article.
But anyhow i think we got our table full with just this farm system, and the resulting mess with the league finacials.
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Post by Scott on Mar 18, 2009 14:05:21 GMT -5
the trade that i made wayne gross for 500k would not have happened unless i got an extra 500k from the bonus....i know thats small ball, but the twins are as effecient as the braves right now. The awards i would vote w/ out a bonus, but im sure some wouldnt. League articles i would probably not do unless i got a bonus. It gives me incentive to start an article, w/ out the incentive i would never really think about starting an article. But anyhow i think we got our table full with just this farm system, and the resulting mess with the league finacials. This is part of the financial mess. And IMO, it is the biggest part of the financial mess. It is the single overriding factor as to why we have such high cash levels in the league today. I cannot remember why or when they were put into place, but I really do not think they are needed now. And maybe you could keep the article bonus, but just lower it. That seems like something that maybe we could use some incentive for. But trading and voting is just overkill IMO.
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Post by Mosko on Mar 18, 2009 14:47:57 GMT -5
This discussion is starting to stray a bit from the original topic, the minor league ratings.
Here's how I see where we are with that topic:
We can change everybody's spending on medical, scouting and farm to zero and NOT reset the ratings and by the end of the year, everybody will be at A+ in all three categories. I think that's what is being reported by those who have tested it.
If we don't reset the ratings, then we don't have to worry about messing up everybody's fan loyalty or correcting the cash when it gets changed to $10.5M.
But we still have to decide what to do about the extra $25M or so that everybody will have. I've seen four options: (a) Deduct $25M from everybody's cash at the end of each season, (b) add a phantom player with a $25M salary to everybody's roster, (c) Change the revenue level in the game from +40% to 0% (or whatever it takes to get back to where we need to be), or (d) do nothing, realizing that everybody will have so much cash that practically no usable free agents will ever be available.
The other discussions relating to the excessive cash in the league AS IT IS NOW can be discussed separately.
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Post by Paul - Jays GM on Mar 18, 2009 14:50:42 GMT -5
I'm with Scott on the bonus stuff - lets get rid of the financial bonuses for stuff, perhaps we could roll a new system of incentives in with the playoff prizes (with an annual cap of lower than 5 million) perhaps an article could be worth a 250k reduction of a contract amount. Trades and voting should not be rewarded - they are part of league participation. I'm with Scott again, no voting = penalty!
Also - grades and finances are completely a mixed issue, we cannot fix the settings for farm, medical and scouting without addressing the financial issue.
So here is my proposal. Let's have a vote on resetting all the grades (boosts everyone up to A+, and averages fan loyalty to 75, also drops cash down to 10.5 million) and adjusting the league settings so that "medical staff affect on injuries" goes down to -100% and revenue is reduced from +40% to -10%. We would also have to do a cash to points coversion for all teams (less 10.5 million of course) so that current accumulated cash would not be affected by the changes.
I also propose that we adjust our current bonus system and that we also have a more realistic set of prices for stadium improvements and upgrades.
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Post by boobiegibson4three on Mar 18, 2009 14:59:50 GMT -5
i thought we couldnt reset the grades...just set everyone's spending to zero.....anyhow i would vote no on your proposal just on the fact i cant follow it.
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