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Post by sjrand on Jul 12, 2007 10:03:43 GMT -5
We're going to need a rule to deal with clever owners getting free releases by forcing overpriced veterans into retirement in the 2k8 file.
It could be refusing to allow any veteran to be demoted lower than AAA, it could be forcing the owner to pay for a contract buy out, or even forcing a player to clear waivers before demoting him.
I'm talking about real waivers now, not BBM league waivers: The owner posts his intention to farm out a veteran and has to wait until he clears before sending him down.
There's a lot of potential for exploiting the overzealous 2k8 retirement system to the benefit of large roster teams and teams with lots a long high $ contracts.
We only have until around the end of the world series to make a decision on how to handle this so everyone will know what's allowed or what it'll cost them to use this ploy when we change over.
The preceding was a public service message. This post does not necessarily reflect the views of any TMBL officials.
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Post by Exposgm on Jul 12, 2007 14:28:06 GMT -5
I have thought about this too. In the tests I run, the rosters always end up smaller everytime I check them, even running month by month. I even tried putting highly paid veterans in the minor leagues and they didn't last long.
We'll need to discuss more about this. There are a couple of things I want to check on this but my guess is we will need some kind of rule to prevent abuse in any way.
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Post by reds on Jul 12, 2007 17:19:54 GMT -5
How about if your guy retires, that team has to pay half of his remaining salary, so it is just like releasing a player now? Otherwise we could see lots of 7 year free agent contracts to guys past their peaks, since sending to the minors would be like a free release.
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Post by Mosko on Jul 27, 2007 13:18:47 GMT -5
I kinda like Rand's suggestion that an owner has to pay 50% of the contract value if a guy in the minors retires, 25% for a hitter on the bench and zero for pitcher in the majors and hitters in the lineup (either lineup).
Thsi would perhaps discourage owners from signing someone near the end of his career to a long contract, knowing that he would retire with no penalty as soon as he's sent to the minors. And it wouldn't penalize the owner who legitimately signs someone intending to use him.
Of course, Terry, who'd have the additional work, needs to okay it. But I'd like to get a yes or no on this soon, because it makes a difference on whether I want to resign some of my current older players. I have a couple of pitchers that I'd like to resign and use in 1970, but I won't if we have to pay 100% or even 50% of the contract if he retires.
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Post by Exposgm on Jul 27, 2007 14:29:28 GMT -5
I like the idea too, and mostly for the same reasons Mosko evoked.
I would need to find the easiest way to do it, but I'm sure it wouldn't be too complicated.
50% for a player in the minors 25% for a hitter on the bench zero dollars for pitcher in the majors or hitter in either starting lineup (LF/RH).
As would say Ned Flanders: I agree-didelee-yee!
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Post by Scott on Jul 27, 2007 20:03:45 GMT -5
I still think there is a way around that depening on how random the retirements are. If an owner does a sim over and over again and a player in his minors or bench retires all the time, he could just place him in the lineup for that sim.
I haven't looked at retirements hard enough to know if they are completely random or if there is some pattern to them.
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Post by Mosko on Jul 27, 2007 20:15:05 GMT -5
In all of my sims with Seattle, all of the guys who retire are in the majors. Sometimes they retire early in the year and sometimes later, but the same guys retire almost every time. So I really can't tell if moving a guy down to the minors or up to the majors makes any difference.
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Post by Exposgm on Jul 27, 2007 21:26:52 GMT -5
I guess there is a certain randomness to it.
In my sims, reliever Jim Owens seems to always retire when he is on my major league roster. But the time I made a sim and wrote down every retired player's name, I sent him in AAA and he didn't retire!
But the point of having people pay would be to avoid, among other things, having owners sign players for too long thinking they can just sit him in AAA when he's not needed anymore. It will make some people think twice when the time comes to sign walking players and free agents.
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Post by sjrand on Jul 29, 2007 11:16:54 GMT -5
Thanks to Rich having to put not one, but four first year rookies into his 2k8 lineup, meaning I had to add them to the file <growl> I noticed two more categories that I don't remember having seen in versions before 10.29; projected debut (year) and projected retirement (year).
Once I get the rosters entered, I'm hoping to have enough time to look at least some of the retiring players projections and see if altering them helps.
Testers don't need to wait for me to do it, go into edit player and scroll down to the contract information section. These two categories are located below No Trade Clause.
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Post by sjrand on Jul 29, 2007 11:24:43 GMT -5
Update to the above:
At a fast glance I found that one of the pitchers who usually retires has a retirement year of 1968. Another one has the number 5 in that category, whatever the hell that's supposed to mean (probably a conversion error, and he's not the only one like that).
I haven't tested changing it yet, so I'll rely on the more industrious among you to try it out with the old file and let me know if it helps.
If it does help, this could delay the new file posting. We'll see.
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Post by Mosko on Jul 29, 2007 12:18:24 GMT -5
I tried it and didn't see any difference. I picked the six players on Seattle who retire every time and changed the "Projected Retirement" field to 1980. They retired anyway when I ran the sim.
Then I changed the field to "0" since the brief explanation when you choose that field says "0 = ignore 'career window'". Still no difference. The same players retired anyway when I ran the sim.
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Post by sjrand on Jul 29, 2007 12:55:58 GMT -5
I tried it and didn't see any difference. I picked the six players on Seattle who retire every time and changed the "Projected Retirement" field to 1980. They retired anyway when I ran the sim. Then I changed the field to "0" since the brief explanation when you choose that field says "0 = ignore 'career window'". Still no difference. The same players retired anyway when I ran the sim. I probably know the answer already, but: Are these all veterans on your major league roster? Currently under contract? In the lineup (if hitters)? Could you list them for me so I can see if they have anything in common other than the misfortune to be playing in the first season of a version converted file?
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Post by Mosko on Aug 4, 2007 11:30:45 GMT -5
Here are the six players who almost always retire from Seattle: P Carlton Willey P Dom Zanni P Don Ferrarese P Ken Johnson IF Elder White 3B Ed Charles
The two hitters are on the ML bench. For the pitchers, it doesn't matter whether they are in the rotation or in the pen or in the minors. They retire nearly every time either way. Zanni and Johnson are in their walk years, but the others all have one or more additional years under contract.
Incidentally, when White retires from the bench, the game rearranges my starting lineup, moving Rudi from the bench to 2B, Garrido to LF and Nicholson to the bench.
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Post by sjrand on Aug 6, 2007 10:36:16 GMT -5
Here are the six players who almost always retire from Seattle: P Carlton Willey P Dom Zanni P Don Ferrarese P Ken Johnson IF Elder White 3B Ed Charles The two hitters are on the ML bench. For the pitchers, it doesn't matter whether they are in the rotation or in the pen or in the minors. They retire nearly every time either way. Zanni and Johnson are in their walk years, but the others all have one or more additional years under contract. I thought I found a pattern based on the debut year, but in my test a while back changing that year only made the retirements random rather than something that happens every sim. If you want to test it yourself, the players I saw that always retired have a debut year of 1955 to 1958 (59?), with most being in 1957. I saw that Abernathy never retires even though he's age 40, and his debut year is 1954. Playing around with that value, along with changing retirement to 3000 and signing the walk year guys, could lessen the problem.
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Post by Mosko on Oct 15, 2007 15:53:44 GMT -5
Maybe this is only be a problem for my team, since I have lots of pre-peak players and quite a few post-peak players, but not too many players within their peaks.
What I am seeing is that I am going to have to play at least a couple of guys who are 3-4 years from peaking, earlier than I prefer to play them, because a bunch of the old guys retire and there aren't any free agents within peak.
I could sign some other old free agents, but they'll just retire too. And even within-peak veterans will sometimes retire if they're in the minors. For instance, I signed free agent pitcher DeBusschere, thinking that I'd leave him in the minors until the first old pitcher retires, then move him up. But in some sims, DeBusschere retires first, even though he has a few peak years left.
Are we going to have a severe player shortage in a couple of seasons as all these post-peak players retire and all of the rookies are 5-7 years from being remotely usable?
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Post by sjrand on Oct 17, 2007 11:10:24 GMT -5
Are we going to have a severe player shortage in a couple of seasons as all these post-peak players retire and all of the rookies are 5-7 years from being remotely usable? Nope. Retirements are bad the first season, but fall off dramatically by 1971 and beyond. The rookies in our file are already usable, and 2k8 isn't anywhere near as bad with them as 2k4 was. Every single rookie on our teams was already playing in the pros by 1970. Most of them were in the pros long before 1970. I made rookie files using players who debuted one season after the season following the draft: When we drafted in the off season before 1962, we drafted players who debuted on the pro team in 1963. When we drafted in the off season before 1969, we drafted players who debuted on the pro team in 1970. Despite how we league team owners play it, peak wasn't meant to dictate when the player was ready for the pros. Peak was supposed to be the sweet spot in his pro career.
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